Curse

Minami · Oct 06, 2009, 06:32 AM // 06:32

Quote:

Guys, the official rules state: "Entries must be the submission of the contestant and cannot be taken from any other source. ''Your submission must not infringe on any patent, copyright, trademark or other intellectual property right, or any privacy, publicity or publishing rights of any third party, or be libelous, obscene or otherwise contrary to law.''

This means that entries should be original to the extent that they do not violate another person's copyright or trademark. The skills used in Guild Wars are owned by ArenaNet, the sponsors of this contest. Using those skills and putting them into particular combinations is not violating a third party's rights. That is what's meant by "originality".

I understand this. But this still doesn't explain to me WHY Martin said what he said about "niche meta builds" and "common gimmick builds" etc. are not going to be picked.
That's what's been frustrating me, not what's been answered already.
If this has been addressed, please point me to it, I must have missed it.

Shasgaliel · Oct 06, 2009, 07:30 AM // 07:30

What all of you want then? Take the prizes from the winners? Official apology from ANET and resignation of the live crew? Asking the same questions and making the same points for all those pages must have some purpose so what is it? Inde has a point that most questions were already answered and rest they will just not ignore. To answer them they would need to publicly admit to a mistake which will never happen. Admiting to mistakes creates much worse publicity than for the situation in which they just cover things up. Now it is all speculation but when they admit it then it all becomes official and they do not want that (which is kind of obvious no?).

People are treating this game much too seriously and get frustrated too easily. Everything what ANET does is now a good reason for a rant. Do they do anything ok at all? If not then just stop complaining and go play something else cause complaining will not change anything. What is the point in all of that?

@guy who wanted to go to court - please do and prove that people winning the contest copied the builds... Even with access to ANET logs you will not be able to do that. Then prove how originality was supposed to be understood. Since Anet has their own different understanding you will have to prove their understanding wrong (good luck with that).

Newsflash: PVP is dying and regardless which henchmen bars were/would be chosen and how it will not be resurrected. So lets keep arguing and share our frustration around another pointless element of gw1...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kisuro

That's why Magic tournament rules do not have the "originality" rule.

Even if we decide to treat your latest interpretation of the originality rule as serious, the Magic parabole fails. Such a rule is not needed, because players understand that they are only allowed to make decks out of Magic cards. The only purpose that rule served is confusing the participants. How do you imagine GW players could use skills that are not property of ANet in their builds?

MTG had issues with players playing exactly the same decks so they removed some cards (being the root for those decks) from the tournaments. At the time I was playing MTG same decks were the issue in the tournaments (goblin grenade...). So ANET explanation is understandable (still flawed). When creating a MTG tournament deck you are limited to some subset of cards only. It is like submiting build with pve skills... not skills from other game.

Kisuro · Oct 06, 2009, 07:31 AM // 07:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

Magic: The Gathering has a similar situation to Guild Wars: good decks are good decks. Individual players do not hold exclusive copyright or trademarks to use those decks. Lots of people play the same kinds of decks (i.e. those decks are popular), sometimes with slight variations, for one reason: they are effective. There are sites out there devoted to Magic: The Gathering strategies, on how to build the best decks, what cards to put in those decks, etc. This information is available to the public.

That's why Magic tournament rules do not have the "originality" rule.

Even if we decide to treat your latest interpretation of the originality rule as serious, the Magic parabole fails. Such a rule is not needed, because players understand that they are only allowed to make decks out of Magic cards. The only purpose that rule served is confusing the participants. How do you imagine GW players could use skills that are not property of ANet in their builds?

Quote:

This means that entries should be original to the extent that they do not violate another person's copyright or trademark. The skills used in Guild Wars are owned by ArenaNet, the sponsors of this contest. Using those skills and putting them into particular combinations is not violating a third party's rights. That is what's meant by "originality".

Why does this appear only now, after the winners have been declared. People were wondering about this rule since the contest was announced. I'm sorry, but this simply feels like a dodge.

Akaraxle · Oct 06, 2009, 08:42 AM // 08:42

I don't understand why you guys keep nitpicking on the contest's rules: it's completely beside the point, and gives ANet the edge in this discussion.

What is clear as day and undebatable from every point of view is that ArenaNet made a mistake. Don't get fooled by tactical legalese posts, you guys are in the right. Here's how I see it:

The official rules state nothing about a potential AI update. Anyone reading the official rules and knowing the henchmen's behaviour well enough would never have submitted a bar with e.g. Bull's Strike in it.
A community manager came on these forums and posted misleading information such as "common gimmick builds are not likely to be picked" (proven wrong by the results) and "builds that will not be immediately made obsolete" (proven wrong by the presence of certain powerful skills); for this, the company is at fault for being incoherent about their intentions with the CR office.
Assuming by absurd the information posted was reputed by the company as pristine rather than deceptive, and the vast majority of the community misunderstood en masse, then the community manager would have been at fault for not being having been able to convey it in a timely and unmistakable fashion.

There really is nothing else to say. But there's this issue with ANet not being able to admit "sorry, we made a mistake, let us patch it right up"...

Meridon · Oct 06, 2009, 08:54 AM // 08:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

[*]Assuming by absurd the information posted was reputed by the company as pristine rather than deceptive, and the vast majority of the community misunderstood en masse, then the community manager is at fault for not being having been able to convey it in a timely and unmistakable fashion.[/list]
There really is nothing else to say. But there's this issue with ANet not being able to admit "sorry, we made a mistake, let us patch it right up"...

I have refrained from posting in this thread in order to not restate the obvious.

But what you just pointed out here, is pretty significant, as it's not the first time this has happened. In fact, it happened not too long ago, during the Talk Like a Pirate Day event. People thought the event would end on Tuesday, but it ended earlier, and again, the community manager didnt warn us up beforehand, even though doing so would have been easy enough. Also, I remember a once or twice in the past year the entire community was expecting a skill update, and they failed to inform us of it's delay until afterwards.

Are they seriously becoming sloppy lately or is it just me?

Akaraxle · Oct 06, 2009, 09:03 AM // 09:03

Just a clarification on my 3rd point (which I slightly edited accordingly): Martin's post about no gimmicks and no obsoletes was absolutely clear from my point of view, hence the "by absurd". Obviously there was inconsistency between what Martin said and what those picking the builds did.

Either Martin went too much out of his way with that post, or the "judges" didn't take into consideration what was said by their community office. In any case, it is a screw up.

Grj · Oct 06, 2009, 09:16 AM // 09:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meridon

Are they seriously becoming sloppy lately or is it just me?

It's hitting new lows it seem's, lucky for Anet it'll all be soon forgotton about.

I have a feeling it's going to continue, makes a person wonder whats in store for guildwars 2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

The problem here is the information they have given us doesn't actually respond to our problems at all.

Isn't this the general theme anyway, dodge most of the questions and spin everything else.

Aljasha · Oct 06, 2009, 09:43 AM // 09:43

obviously anet have some internal communication problems. i don't want to defend anet in any way but i guess this problem occurs when a team works on too many things at the same time.

/winthread Akaraxle

JR · Oct 06, 2009, 09:46 AM // 09:46

Good points Akaraxle. I want to expand on a few of them, and add a couple of my own:

Clear miscommunication between Martin and whoever picked the winners. Martin made the (smart) point of encouraging original and non-meta builds, which was then entirely ignored by those choosing the winning bars. Possibly he has a greater understanding of how AI works in the game than the judges do?

Poor judgement in picking. Spin off of the previous point. Whoever picked the winning bars not only made a lot of very silly mistakes, but fails to grasp what would make a decent AI skillbar in the first place.

Lack of clarification. Whilst the whole copyright/originality clause in the rules may have obviously been legal jargon to some, combined with Martin's comment there were many who took it too literally. Also, that people had to go digging to find where Regina had mentioned the point about AI tweaking was pretty pathetic. These should both have been explained from day one, or at least immediately after they became an issue, instead of Regina basically shutting the stable door after the horses had already bolted.

Inability to communicate issues. As Inde pointed out, there have been continued calls for CM involvement in a thread in which they have been very involved. The reason this thread is still going, the reason we have all these silly ad hominem attacks, is because they have failed to answer the most important question. They have failed to answer it because nobody has directly asked it. "What are you going to do about it?"

This whole thread reeks of the silly standoffish behavior that has developed between this community and ArenaNet over the years. The incredibly poor relationship has damaged communication to the point where not only was it probably the root of this problem, it has made it exponentially worse with every page.

A lot of people here are waaaaaaay too vitriolic, constantly on the offensive and looking for any reason to smear ArenaNet. It's boring, tiring and immature. At the same time, ArenaNet is not making much effort in trying to improve that. They are not actively participating in the community, giving people the benefit of the doubt, admitting mistakes, or making a real effort to understand concerns. Communication is always the bare minimum, almost always reactive not proactive, and largely cold and professional in tone.

I have no idea which one caused the other, or if both simultaneously developed over time. I will say one thing; if ArenaNet aren't willing to admit to their screw ups then perhaps they shouldn't expect much sympathy. I think it's fairly obvious that somewhere along the line there have been mistakes made with this contest, yet we have had no recognition of that from ArenaNet - just excuses.

Either way, it absolutely needs to stop.

In the meanwhile, we are back to the one question that remains in this thread: What are you going to do about it?

Šiljo · Oct 06, 2009, 09:57 AM // 09:57

Nothing, use the hench on double fame weekend or when some1 dc's.

Meridon · Oct 06, 2009, 10:24 AM // 10:24

Easiest way for Anet to treat this pvp henchman fiasco is to just treat it like they treated XTH: Remove it from the game, claim that you're "working on it, but can't promise that it returns". Then, just never let it return when the community has forgotten about it. Requires no apologies from ArenaNET, and gives yet another easy excuse to not be working on skill balance or a PvP Love update. Hence, "To XTH something".

Meridon

Shasgaliel · Oct 06, 2009, 10:29 AM // 10:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Inability to communicate issues. As Inde pointed out, there have been continued calls for CM involvement in a thread in which they have been very involved. The reason this thread is still going, the reason we have all these silly ad hominem attacks, is because they have failed to answer the most important question. They have failed to answer it because nobody has directly asked it. "What are you going to do about it?"

This whole thread reeks of the silly standoffish behavior that has developed between this community and ArenaNet over the years. The incredibly poor relationship has damaged communication to the point where not only was it probably the root of this problem, it has made it exponentially worse with every page.

A lot of people here are waaaaaaay too vitriolic, constantly on the offensive and looking for any reason to smear ArenaNet. It's boring, tiring and immature. At the same time, ArenaNet is not making much effort in trying to improve that. They are not actively participating in the community, giving people the benefit of the doubt, admitting mistakes, or making a real effort to understand concerns. Communication is always the bare minimum, almost always reactive not proactive, and largely cold and professional in tone.

I have no idea which one caused the other, or if both simultaneously developed over time. I will say one thing; if ArenaNet aren't willing to admit to their screw ups then perhaps they shouldn't expect much sympathy. I think it's fairly obvious that somewhere along the line there have been mistakes made with this contest, yet we have had no recognition of that from ArenaNet - just excuses.

Either way, it absolutely needs to stop.

I have to say I was astounded by the language used by some of the people on the talk pages of Regina or Linsey. I am quite surprised that Anet employees even bother to answer some of those personal and often nasty remarks. Here on GURU it is at least moderated so we see only the most civilized of those which would have been here.

People demand quite a lot from Anet but they are unable to show something as simple as respect.

My point is why would they bother to care to communicate to people who behave towards them in such a way?

Kisuro · Oct 06, 2009, 10:47 AM // 10:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shasgaliel

People demand quite a lot from Anet but they are unable to show something as simple as respect.

My point is why would they bother to care to communicate to people who behave towards them in such a way?

Respect works both ways, you know. When the community expresses genuine concerns, it would be nice if ANet addressed these concerns instead of trying to dodge the issue.
I mean seriously, all this would have been nipped in the bud if at the beginning of the discussion ANet just said "Sorry, we screwed up, there was a communication breakdown somewhere along the way". But no. And some of the expalnations offered are bordering on insulting (see the "originality" rule explanation. I'm still finding it hard to believe that it is serious).

Dwaynas Hot Friend · Oct 06, 2009, 11:16 AM // 11:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

What is clear as day and undebatable from every point of view is that ArenaNet made a mistake. Don't get fooled by tactical legalese posts, you guys are in the right. Here's how I see it:

The official rules state nothing about a potential AI update. Anyone reading the official rules and knowing the henchmen's behaviour well enough would never have submitted a bar with e.g. Bull's Strike in it.
A community manager came on these forums and posted misleading information such as "common gimmick builds are not likely to be picked" (proven wrong by the results) and "builds that will not be immediately made obsolete" (proven wrong by the presence of certain powerful skills); for this, the company is at fault for being incoherent about their intentions with the CR office.
Assuming by absurd the information posted was reputed by the company as pristine rather than deceptive, and the vast majority of the community misunderstood en masse, then the community manager would have been at fault for not being having been able to convey it in a timely and unmistakable fashion.

That's the way I am starting to see this situation now as well. Lately things have been sloppy and this has escalated all year. I mean, everything after April Skill Update has been terrible.
I quote this from Linsey's page still:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:Linsey_Murdock/FAQ

"Why aren't all the questions on this page answered? Why aren't you answering questions on your talk? Why are you being so inactive?
A: Right now Live Team is in crunch mode on the April build. Some days I don't even have time to eat or sleep, so finding time for the wiki is tough. You guys should be going to Regina more than me right now, since she is the Community Manager and this is more of a side-project for me."

I'm not one to point and argue, but April was a while back.

It's been just going so far downhill, but its because nobody cares about GW1 anymore, all the focus is for GW2. I barely see answers in ANets posts, only more things to ponder.

/end before this becomes deleted.

Igorputski · Oct 06, 2009, 11:36 AM // 11:36

Quote:

What all of you want then? Take the prizes from the winners? Official apology from ANET and resignation of the live crew?

Yes that would do for starters and then do what was said they would do. I was creative and didn't even look at wiki or pvx and I am punished for this and didn't win a prize because I obeyed the rules of the contest. It's a lopsided contest and a fraud to me by Anet and company and those that picked the winners.

JR · Oct 06, 2009, 11:39 AM // 11:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwaynas Hot Friend

I'm not one to point and argue, but April was a while back.

FWIW, it probably hasn't been changed because she is still in crunch. She is still regularly working until the early hours, and even doing all nighters and working through the next day. She is the last person that should be getting hassle.

Igorputski · Oct 06, 2009, 11:44 AM // 11:44

You know you can say you're doing a lot of things in an online post it certainly doesn't mean you are doing them. Look at me. I've been up all night cleaning my house, scrubbing the floors, washing the windows, changing babies diapers an on an on an on. I can't believe you believe that crap she says she's doing just like that. lol People will say anything online to get symphathy or to get their agenda across. I'd say lying is the number one thing that happens online every single day and most especially on gaming forums and official gaming sites.

Akaraxle · Oct 06, 2009, 11:46 AM // 11:46

"Dear players, it seems there has been a bit of a misunderstanding between our Community Managers and the committee in change of selecting and evaluating the submission for the Henchman Skill Bar contest.

We apologise for the inconvenience. We are currently discussing the most appropriate course of action: whether to improve the AI according to the bars posted, or apply small changes to the builds to make them more suitable for henchman use, or issue another contest while letting the winners keep their prizes. Whatever the decision, rest assured we'll get back at you within the next few days with a solution that will hopefully make everyone happy. "

Would you vote me as a community rep? =P

JR · Oct 06, 2009, 12:02 PM // 12:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

"Dear players, it seems there has been a bit of a misunderstanding between our Community Managers and the committee in charge of selecting and evaluating submissions for the Henchman Skill Bar contest.

We apologise for the inconvenience, and are currently discussing the most appropriate course of action: Whether to improve the AI according to the bars posted, apply small changes to the builds to make them more suitable for henchman use, or issue another contest while letting the winners keep their prizes. Whatever the decision, rest assured we'll get back to you within the next few days with a solution that will hopefully keep everyone happy. "

Would you vote me as a community rep? =P

Perhaps if you got yourself an editor...

Igorputski · Oct 06, 2009, 12:38 PM // 12:38

Quote:

or issue another contest while letting the winners keep their prizes.

I'd go for this except not give prizes to those who just used a wiki/pvx build. Anyone who submitted an uncommon and origional build that one I have no problems with whether it would be useful or not at least it was uncommon and origional to me.

Thing is Akaraxle you ain't Anet and they've never really been so kind.